Sir Julian Lewis: I am listening with great interest to my hon. Friend’s [Tim Loughton’s] authoritative speech. There is a paradox that always strikes me about giving money to the French to stop the small boats coming: if they ever succeeded in stopping the small boats coming, that would mean that France would be the end of the line for those illegal immigrants. That would mean that the French would have to start imposing their own borders, which have largely been dismantled in the context of the EU, to stop the illegal migration into their country. Can we ever really expect the French to co-operate in sealing off the illegal route across the channel?

[Tim Loughton: The response is, “To an extent, Lord Copper.” The authorities around Calais who are trying to deal with the crossings said that the year before last, when the Government announced the Rwanda scheme, they saw a big surge in migrants around Calais approaching the French authorities to try to regularise their position in France, because they did not want to risk being put on a plane to Rwanda. Why are so many migrants in the north of France around Calais? They have come to France because they think that there is a chance that they can get to the UK. They would not necessarily go to France if it were clear that they could not get to the UK because they would be stopped by whatever means – hopefully by the French intercepting them in the water or on the beach and bringing them back – and they would be paying money for a round trip. There are different aspects to this.]

Sir Julian Lewis rose –

[Tim Loughton: If my right hon. Friend will allow me, I will continue. I know that other Members want to speak, and I have a few more points to make. … ]